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#21
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/8 4:59

Joined 2019/1/27
USA
-1 Posts
Long Time User (1 Year)
Quote:

speedyink wrote:
I think you've missed the point entirely...

Just a couple things:

1) Thunderstruck was way more in depth then just sprite swaps and rom hacks. He did have original games and software tools to help make games. One of those games (Fishbone) was for sale on that site. Some games he made which were not original, though he had to build from scratch (Snatcher etc.). They have been great additions to our library. There were many other little odds and sod hacks thrown in, yeah, but his scope was wide. Those of us who appreciate the VB are very grateful for his contributions, big and small.

2) Thunderstruck openly stated any profit he made on that one run of carts he made himself, were going toward future VB projects. This in turn makes them not personal profits, but community profits.

3) This was never about the fact that someone was selling repros of his work. It was to do with how it was done, and the lack of respect the seller has shown.


I for one, will miss you, Thunder. I'm glad I at least got one of your Space Invader carts so I at least have something personal to remember you by. Please take care out there. PM me your email if you'd like to stay in contact, it sucks to loose contact with members of old, it's been happening too much lately.


1. No, I got it, and I know of Fishbone. Still though, a majority from what I've seen have been illegal level stuff which is why I called it hypocrisy. Even if he built snatcher, it's still Konami IP/assets, not made up like Fishbone.

2. Not relevant. He's still selling another IP that is active and making the company (Taito) money. I do believe Konami is with Snatcher too as it's on that PCEngine Mini. Vintex may be showing a level of disrespect, but Thunder has shown more stealing active IP.

3. Both parties were being salty, both are doing criminal level stuff. I don't believe either side has a right or stance to take a higher road as they're both crooks and wrong. I find it galling people are sucking up to one thief and throwing the other under the bus. And you're hardly unbiased in this thanking him for your $100 space invaders illegal purchase you know. He didn't have to stomp his feet and quit, that was a choice, likely one to get some craved attention as it usually is.

I'm grateful for the work he has done, and he's been good to chat with on discord to. I'm just not going to turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy of the whole thing or the tantrums either by both sides.
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#22
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/8 15:07
Nintendoid!
Joined 2006/3/15
Ecuador
239 Posts
PVBCC 3rdCoderLong Time User (14 Years)
Quote:

VmprHntrD wrote:

1. ... Still though, a majority from what I've seen have been illegal level stuff which is why I called it hypocrisy.


"Hypocrisy" is originally an ethical, evaluative term, not a legal one. But as it is factually false that everything illegal is ethically wrong so it is factually false that every ethical norm is codified in a law (go look it up). Therefore, you are not entitled to call anyone hypocritical just because he has done something illegal (which I don't know if it is in this case because I don't have any kind of legal background, but I will give you that for the sake of argument) without further justification. Now, from the above quote, it is plainly clear that you endorse the inference from something being illegal to that something being unethical. That, joined by the fact that you don't have any problem calling people names, entitles me to deduce, that while it isn't sufficient to call you hypocritical, how much ignorant you are about the divide between ethics, legality and the meaning of "hypocrisy".

Quote:

2. Not relevant. He's still selling another IP that is active and making the company (Taito) money. I do believe Konami is with Snatcher too as it's on that PCEngine Mini. Vintex may be showing a level of disrespect, but Thunder has shown more stealing active IP.


And you are putting on the same ethical level a person and a company. Again, while this may be so in legal grounds (I suppose that in some jurisdictions a company is a "kind of person" with LEGAL rights and such), it is absolutely uncalled for to do so in the ethical sphere without further ado (which you didn't because you just conflated the ethical with the legal). A company doesn't have ethical rights just by being a company (if it has any ethical right, and I doubt it can be rationally argued without falling into compositional fallacies, that right is most likely derived and non fundamental), while a person does.

On top of the above, you are, most likely, implicitly and equivocally using the term "work" to sustain the comparison between Vintex and thunder because you need there to be stealings of the same kind in both cases for the comparison to be valid. But this, again, is wrong. While Vintex is stealing thunder's actual work, thunder isn't stealing anything that is even remotely something that can be called "work" in the same sense. Taito, Konami, etc. exist as capital investments, which means that the persons who own them and who may be actually, as opposed to just potentially, affected is not people that work. And no, investing capital is not working as the word is actually used because to work in the current economical system means "to sell one's working force". A capitalist doesn't sell his working force to anybody. So, you haven't proved that thunder has stolen anything similar to what Vintex has and, therefore, you haven't shown that they are committing the same kind of unethical acts (that is without restating what speedink said about personal profit versus community profit, which you completely ignored without rational justification).

And I will spare you the utilitarian argument about the possible consequences to the people that do work for such companies, the people who actually produce their software, because it most likely will be a slippery slope argument, and if not, that is even if you avoid that fallacy somehow, you would still have to argue about how the potential being can have more ethical value than the actual being. Good luck with that.

Quote:

I find it galling people are sucking up to one thief and throwing the other under the bus. And you're hardly unbiased in this thanking him for your $100 space invaders illegal purchase you know.


And I find it hilarious, and pathetic, that people who show to not have any kind of basic understanding of how words work are so entitled to pitiful opinions and baseless value judgements. Not to mention the glaring ad hominem attack to a person instead of attacking her arguments.

But I will play along to see if your faulty logic, when used against you, help you wake up: since you haven't done anything worthwhile for the community, the fact that you keep attacking a member that has done a lot for it even when he isn't around anymore to defend himself, makes you a hypocritical.
Edited by jorgeche on 2020/4/8 15:40
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#23
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/9 2:28
Newbie
Joined 2019/8/20
0 Posts
Alright, so as this was all going down, I got in a bit of a heated debate with Thunderstruck. Since then I decided it was best to back off and let things be.

However, after seeing this post, and as someone who didn't end on good terms with Thunderstruck, I'd like to say lets put a pin in the controversy. Regardless of his reason for leaving, and regardless of anyone's views on it, he did do some great things for the community. From Game Hero and Fishbone, to numerous translations, to the PVB coding competitions, he put in plenty time and effort in dedication to this community.

If one of the last people to argue with Thunderstruck can stop and say let's appreciate what he did, I think you can to. Lets not turn his farewell into a public debate. It's a shame it's over, but I appreciate the work you put in Thunderstruck.
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#24
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/9 16:46

Joined 2015/9/17
Canada
-1 Posts
Collection Top10Long Time User (4 Years)
Quote:

jorgeche wrote:
Quote:

VmprHntrD wrote:

1. ... Still though, a majority from what I've seen have been illegal level stuff which is why I called it hypocrisy.


"Hypocrisy" is originally an ethical, evaluative term, not a legal one. But as it is factually false that everything illegal is ethically wrong so it is factually false that every ethical norm is codified in a law (go look it up). Therefore, you are not entitled to call anyone hypocritical just because he has done something illegal (which I don't know if it is in this case because I don't have any kind of legal background, but I will give you that for the sake of argument) without further justification. Now, from the above quote, it is plainly clear that you endorse the inference from something being illegal to that something being unethical. That, joined by the fact that you don't have any problem calling people names, entitles me to deduce, that while it isn't sufficient to call you hypocritical, how much ignorant you are about the divide between ethics, legality and the meaning of "hypocrisy".

Quote:

2. Not relevant. He's still selling another IP that is active and making the company (Taito) money. I do believe Konami is with Snatcher too as it's on that PCEngine Mini. Vintex may be showing a level of disrespect, but Thunder has shown more stealing active IP.


And you are putting on the same ethical level a person and a company. Again, while this may be so in legal grounds (I suppose that in some jurisdictions a company is a "kind of person" with LEGAL rights and such), it is absolutely uncalled for to do so in the ethical sphere without further ado (which you didn't because you just conflated the ethical with the legal). A company doesn't have ethical rights just by being a company (if it has any ethical right, and I doubt it can be rationally argued without falling into compositional fallacies, that right is most likely derived and non fundamental), while a person does.

On top of the above, you are, most likely, implicitly and equivocally using the term "work" to sustain the comparison between Vintex and thunder because you need there to be stealings of the same kind in both cases for the comparison to be valid. But this, again, is wrong. While Vintex is stealing thunder's actual work, thunder isn't stealing anything that is even remotely something that can be called "work" in the same sense. Taito, Konami, etc. exist as capital investments, which means that the persons who own them and who may be actually, as opposed to just potentially, affected is not people that work. And no, investing capital is not working as the word is actually used because to work in the current economical system means "to sell one's working force". A capitalist doesn't sell his working force to anybody. So, you haven't proved that thunder has stolen anything similar to what Vintex has and, therefore, you haven't shown that they are committing the same kind of unethical acts (that is without restating what speedink said about personal profit versus community profit, which you completely ignored without rational justification).

And I will spare you the utilitarian argument about the possible consequences to the people that do work for such companies, the people who actually produce their software, because it most likely will be a slippery slope argument, and if not, that is even if you avoid that fallacy somehow, you would still have to argue about how the potential being can have more ethical value than the actual being. Good luck with that.

Quote:

I find it galling people are sucking up to one thief and throwing the other under the bus. And you're hardly unbiased in this thanking him for your $100 space invaders illegal purchase you know.


And I find it hilarious, and pathetic, that people who show to not have any kind of basic understanding of how words work are so entitled to pitiful opinions and baseless value judgements. Not to mention the glaring ad hominem attack to a person instead of attacking her arguments.

But I will play along to see if your faulty logic, when used against you, help you wake up: since you haven't done anything worthwhile for the community, the fact that you keep attacking a member that has done a lot for it even when he isn't around anymore to defend himself, makes you a hypocritical.


"He can compress the most words into the smallest ideas of any man I ever met."

- Abraham Lincoln
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#25
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/9 17:25
Nintendoid!
Joined 2006/3/15
Ecuador
239 Posts
PVBCC 3rdCoderLong Time User (14 Years)
Quote:

Quaze wrote:

"He can compress the most words into the smallest ideas of any man I ever met."

- Abraham Lincoln


Why don't you try to argue how what I said is false, wrong, unjustified or excessive instead of shielding you behind a quote to insult me in a passive-aggressive way? That is extremely cheap.

I mean, if you can dismiss everything of what I said and subsume it so easily under such a derogatory concept as "smallest idea", I suppose that you have the resources to justify how you accomplished it. Please, enlighten me.
Edited by jorgeche on 2020/4/9 17:35
Edited by jorgeche on 2020/4/9 17:38
Edited by jorgeche on 2020/4/9 17:42
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#26
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/10 2:10

Joined 2015/7/18
Australia
-1 Posts
Long Time User (5 Years)
Quote:

Yamagushi wrote:
Alright, so as this was all going down, I got in a bit of a heated debate with Thunderstruck. Since then I decided it was best to back off and let things be.

However, after seeing this post, and as someone who didn't end on good terms with Thunderstruck, I'd like to say lets put a pin in the controversy. Regardless of his reason for leaving, and regardless of anyone's views on it, he did do some great things for the community. From Game Hero and Fishbone, to numerous translations, to the PVB coding competitions, he put in plenty time and effort in dedication to this community.

If one of the last people to argue with Thunderstruck can stop and say let's appreciate what he did, I think you can to. Lets not turn his farewell into a public debate. It's a shame it's over, but I appreciate the work you put in Thunderstruck.



I agree with Yamagushi - at this point I really think we should just put all this behind us. For better or worse, it has happened, and there isn't much sense in arguing endlessly about it. All it does in my mind is hurt the great sense of community we have 99% of the time, and take focus off the hard work Thunderstruck has put out for all of us to enjoy.

TRM.
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#27
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/10 5:07

Joined 2019/1/27
USA
-1 Posts
Long Time User (1 Year)
I was going to put something more here, but I'll leave it with quaze post there. After what Yamagushi said I'm not going to continue this as it won't do any good. What's done is done.
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#28
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/10 5:29

Joined 2012/4/25
Switzerland
-1 Posts
Long Time User (8 Years)
I feel like this situation was inevitable. There will always be pests on earth.
However, I think we have to live with it.
I had a good experience with Thunderstruck who was kind enough to put a personalized message on my game.
I don't think the parasites will ever be able to reproduce the quality and creativity of Thunderstruck. They'll always be one step behind and eventually give up. They don't have the passion.
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#29
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/10 14:30
Nintendoid!
Joined 2006/3/15
Ecuador
239 Posts
PVBCC 3rdCoderLong Time User (14 Years)
Quote:

I agree with Yamagushi - at this point I really think we should just put all this behind us. For better or worse, it has happened, and there isn't much sense in arguing endlessly about it. All it does in my mind is hurt the great sense of community we have 99% of the time, and take focus off the hard work Thunderstruck has put out for all of us to enjoy.

TRM.


I totally agree with you. Having different opinions on the matter should not cause major problems…

… until people starts to call names without rational justification, which is to what I have replied.


Quote:

VmprHntrD wrote:
I was going to put something more here, but I'll leave it with quaze post there. After what Yamagushi said I'm not going to continue this as it won't do any good. What's done is done.


Why?, why do you have to write that? If you really want to raise the white flag, why do you do it in such a way as to imply that what I said is wrong without arguing it and, on top of that, as to suscribe quaze's insult towards me?

If you really want this to stop, why don't you, at the very least, stop insulting other people?

So, since quaze and you have insulted me, I have all the right to retort. But given that you both are cowards (or most likely just too illiterate to being able to articulate a consistent argument, making your only currency meme-level responses), I will do it in a manner that is (apparently) approachable by both of you:

"Sellars's suggestion is that the key element missing from the parrot and the measuring instrument -the difference between merely responsive classification and conceptual classification- is their mastery of the practices of giving and asking for reasons, in which their responses can play a role as justifying beliefs and claims.", Making it explicit, Brandom R., 1994.

Sorry that it isn't a one liner that can be easily found in social media. Some ideas cannot be compressed into enough few words to be found in a meme.

PS: I won't stop until quaze and you either shut up or stop to try to get away with the cowardly reply "I will look as a if I got the upper hand by dismissing other people responses to my offensive remarks by feigning that I know better through an apparent mature act of just letting things go (while leaving a last implicit insult because I'm just that clever)".
Edited by jorgeche on 2020/4/10 14:47
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#30
Re: Thunderstruck quits VB development
Posted on: 4/10 17:58
Newbie
Joined 2013/6/17
Canada
1 Posts
Top10 Poster10+ Game RatingsLong Time User (7 Years)
Quote:

VmprHntrD wrote:
1. No, I got it, and I know of Fishbone. Still though, a majority from what I've seen have been illegal level stuff which is why I called it hypocrisy. Even if he built snatcher, it's still Konami IP/assets, not made up like Fishbone.

2. Not relevant. He's still selling another IP that is active and making the company (Taito) money. I do believe Konami is with Snatcher too as it's on that PCEngine Mini. Vintex may be showing a level of disrespect, but Thunder has shown more stealing active IP.

3. Both parties were being salty, both are doing criminal level stuff. I don't believe either side has a right or stance to take a higher road as they're both crooks and wrong. I find it galling people are sucking up to one thief and throwing the other under the bus. And you're hardly unbiased in this thanking him for your $100 space invaders illegal purchase you know. He didn't have to stomp his feet and quit, that was a choice, likely one to get some craved attention as it usually is.

I'm grateful for the work he has done, and he's been good to chat with on discord to. I'm just not going to turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy of the whole thing or the tantrums either by both sides.


1. "No I got it" - Clearly doesn't get it.
Again, ignoring the part about where creating these *gasp!* Horrid creations using other company IPs..are usually testing grounds for the tools being created to help create new VB games. Again, this is pretty much always clarified by the developer, but when you just browse the downloads page instead of being part of the discussion you may miss things like that.

2. "Not relevant" - It was, but go ahead and say something actually not relevant.

3. Somebody lock that man up! Seriously, what the fuck are you even talking about? All of this talk about how much of a criminal he is, yet you end with

"I'm grateful for the work he has done"

Do you even know what hypocrisy means?
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