You are not logged in.
Lost Password?


Register To Post



 Bottom   Previous Topic   Next Topic

#21
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2011/10/17 18:49
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2011/4/8
Great Britain
417 Posts
Long Time User (7 Years)
The solution you're talking about is just dithering. It's ok for blocks of flat colour, or a simple and regualr gradient, but you can't really do images with it.

Best bet is (in the case of images) to just embrace the colour limit and work wonders with it using the very limited palette.

Open in new window


Now, the image above reduced to 4 colours (click to illustrate) doesn't necessarily do this well, but every gameboy game had to do this and the VB does too. What's challenging is that the gameboy was a simple small screenm, 4 colours was excusable, but the larger resolution of the VB makes things more difficult and challenging.

It's this that I like most about the Virtual Boy, not the 3D feature.

Attach file:



png  4-colours.png (33.66 KB)
1_5b4f61a9cafb3.png 384X224 px
Top

#22
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2011/10/19 2:14
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2011/7/3
USA
431 Posts
CoderContributorLong Time User (7 Years) App Coder40+ Game Ratings
First of all I want to say that is a sweet image you have done some nice color optimization. Second Id like to say I understand dithering and that isnt what I am suggesting. Dithering is where you take a unlimited # of colors and break it down to x amount of colors with patterned blends making the extra colors. What I am suggesting is smart dithering if you will. Taking the 10 colors that cannot appear on the Virtual Boy and substituting them for colors that can and will appear on the Virtual Boy. It's kind of like dithering only without any unwanted artifacts. like a pre-dithering instead of post-dithering. It's taking a limited color pallete and substituting it for patterned colors that can be viewed on the Virtual Boy. Basically taking 10 colors and assigning a value on each color and in the final image when a color comes up that the Virtual Boy can't display it substitutes it for a patterned color that's all. The result may look like dithering but what I am suggesting is more powerful for the artist. Basically no one may incorporate this feature into vide but if they did Id love to start drawing with 10 colors instead of just 4!
Top

#23
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2011/10/19 19:00
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2011/4/8
Great Britain
417 Posts
Long Time User (7 Years)
Ok I get what you're saying - but at the end of everything, isn't that just creating the same image dithering anyway?

The difference is that instead of having the chance to review the dithering amount and spread, then clear up pixels after that - you'd have an image with no optimisation.

If you take Photoshop for example, you could have it render any image into ten colours, then have more control over those colours by filling with a defined pattern, but you'll still need to clear it up afterwards with a quick sweep.

If you want to skip that, you can dither as a pattern, or as noise, which sometimes helps the image representation - but it's still better to have that control in an image editing program then put into code, rather than trust a machine to do it automatically in my opinion.

Unless I'm really off here and you're talking about layering colours on top of each other to get a new colour (like Hellraiser NES) - what would be the actual benefit once all the work is done? Even in this example, I don't think it would work on a VB because visuals are (depending on focus settings) pixel-crisp.

On a TV set you can interlace blue wirh yellow and try to get a green that isn't in the limited palette. However, on a VB, the colours won't blur because they're the same hue and even if they did, you can only mix to a limited extent I'd say. I suppose the best you could hope for is an illusion that looks like 8 shades instead of 4, but I think it's just as easy to do that directly in Photoshop myself.
Top

#24
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2011/10/20 10:50
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2011/4/8
Great Britain
417 Posts
Long Time User (7 Years)
Sorry to double post, I can't figure out to to merge or edit a post - but I thought I might try and illustrate what I mean about the interlacing.

I've mocked up the 4 tones and interlaced these to try and get mixed colours, but it doesn't really make much difference unfortunately: [click to full-size, preview has 2600-syndrome]

Open in new window


Of course, you could try the flickering option, but given the VB's headache issues as-is I can't see this being a good idea. I have no idea what the refresh rate is (60hz x 2?) and even less about sprite limits, I can't see it being a viable option to explore.

Attach file:



png  8-colours.png (2.32 KB)
1_5b4f61eb2f9d7.png 540X400 px
Top

#25
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2011/10/27 23:55
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2011/4/8
Great Britain
417 Posts
Long Time User (7 Years)
Just wanted to come back to this and add that I tried Krisse's program (10 colour demo) out on real hardware and was quite impressed.

The flickering and stereo blending methods don't work, but the dithered 10 colour demo works great. It doesn't give a steady 10 colour gradient, as several dithering patterns look almost the same on real hardware.

However, it sure looks like at least 6 separate colours in there and you can hardly see the dither - unlike the intro to Bound High! The dither is very obvious there as he boosts into the sky. Krisse's demo blends tones much better.
Edited by L___E___T on 2011/10/28 0:05
Top

#26
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2011/10/28 6:33
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2011/7/3
USA
431 Posts
CoderContributorLong Time User (7 Years) App Coder40+ Game Ratings
Finnally, someone understands what I'm talking about. :) Now that we got that taken care of could someone (please) who is good at VIDE program in these Psydo colors so I can start drawing. If not I guess I'll have to do it the old fashoned way.
Edited by morintari on 2011/10/28 6:45
Top

#27
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2011/10/28 11:44
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2011/4/8
Great Britain
417 Posts
Long Time User (7 Years)
If you use Photoshop to draw in ten colours, you can always fill the colours with the same dither pattern as Chris made though right? It's best practice I'd say - it's what I was trying to suggest all along.
Top

#28
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2018/7/18 16:55
Administrator
Joined 2000/1/8
Germany
2496 Posts
Highscore Top10Highscore Top ScoreCoder#1 PosterHOTY09 1stLong Time User (15 Years) App Coder90+ Game Ratings
So I got back to the multiple color topic and finally produced something remotely useful, only ten years after the original post. ;-)

You have probably seen the news about the new Multi Color Demo? It contains an 8 color bar made of two images blended together (the overlapping image is only shown every second frame).

Here's something a little bit more interesting, I quickly converted the Yoshi's Island title screen to 8 colors using that trick. Make sure to try this on a real VB, since the image flickers heavily on emulators!

Unfortunately, as it turns out, the image flickers noticeably even on the VB. While I personally think that the hi-color image looks really good, I find the flickering a bit too annoying for the trick to be really feasible.

What yo you guys think?

EDIT: replaced the ROM. You can now toggle between 4 color and 8 color variants using L and R triggers.

Attach file:



png  yoshis-island-8-colors.png (24.37 KB)
1_5b4f5105c5af4.png 384X224 px
7z yoshis-island-8-colors.7z Size: 108.09 KB; Hits: 46
Edited by KR155E on 2018/7/18 17:10
Edited by KR155E on 2018/7/18 17:11
Top

#29
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2018/7/18 18:16
PVB Elite
Joined 2012/7/9
USA
814 Posts
Top10 PosterLong Time User (6 Years) 20+ Game Ratings
That looks really good! I am very impressed by the coloring.
Top

#30
Re: multiple colors - a dead end?
Posted on: 2018/7/26 16:29
Nintendoid!
Joined 2017/1/31
Germany
129 Posts
Long Time User (1 Year)
Here's a test image with reduced flickering.

In the previous test images it was noticable, that larger areas of a blended color are flickering the most. In this 3D test image, only the 4 base colors are used for larger areas. The additional, blended colors are only used for small details: small shadows and anti-aliasing.

In the attached comparison PNG, you can see that the multi color image looks much smoother and less pixelated. So I think this technique especially works nice for images like this one.

The ROM attached only contains the multi color image without comparison images, though. Still flickers with an emulator of cause, but on hardware I can't perceive flickering anymore.

Thanks to KR155E for compiling the ROM.

Attach file:


7z SNES_multi-color.7z Size: 112.45 KB; Hits: 28

png  SFC_VUE-MultiColor_comparison_crossed.png (19.35 KB)
14288_5b59da636e006.png 740X728 px
Edited by STEREO BOY on 2018/7/26 16:41
Top

 Top   Previous Topic   Next Topic


Register To Post