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#11
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/24 8:55
PVB Elite
Joined 2003/7/25
USA
1221 Posts
PVBCC 1stCoderContributor#2 PosterHOTY09 EntryLong Time User (9 Years) App CoderPVBCC 2010 Entry
Quote:

Heh, that's me, too But, there are open-source clones of Mario Paint, so, why not make one that saves MML? Actually, the Windows one I use (Mario Sequencer) saves a fairly simple file format that could be converted pretty readily, plus the sounds are all .WAV files in a folder, so they can be changed out to match the actual VB "instruments". It would at least get programmers started with a way to make a prototype of what they want the music to sound like, which then gets handed off to an actual musician for polish.

That's a good point, though Mario Paint style doesn't translate to VB particularly well... the "instruments" are more complex than the VB does, and everything is short duration notes. Musagi ( http://www.drpetter.se/project_musagi.html ) could possibly get us close to a working VB music generator, though the output isn't musically pleasing on its own without knowing something about music... so it still doesn't help me ;) .

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I've got a working, albeit not comprehensive, version I split into .C and .H files. I've been slowly cleaning it up and adding to it. It might be a good base to work from.

Yeah, if you've got a good base, please post it here, or you could email to me if you'd prefer.


It's attached. I'm still not a very good C programmer, so the two .h files is all I could come up with to solve some cryptic compiler errors. You can probably eliminate the hack, for which I would be grateful.

Thanks... I'll check it out!

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Oh, I didn't know you weren't using dasi's port of that printf routine. It works great with bgmap_print type stuff. But, I wasn't really talking about debugging. For that, I think we should work on a link-port option.

No, I was talking about text output in an actual game, such as an RPG, inventory adventure, etc. I would especially like to work on features like those found in the Paper Mario games, like "shaking" text for scared people, different sizes for yelling and whispering, etc.

Ah... that's right... I need to try the pos_printf() or whatever that was. But I'm talking about both debugging output as well as normal in-game text. I like to use text functions for things like score, pause screens, dialog, etc. But for shaking text and stuff, couldn't you just use a specific world for that text, printf to it, then move the world? Resizing text would be a little tougher, unless you used Affine, which would probably be overkill.

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Objects:
I actually prefer objects over BGMaps because of their versatility, but they are a bit of a pain to manage. If you want to "generalize" object management, you have to come up with some way of allocating objects, and then keeping track of them. This should be easy, but might have some nasty overhead. I have my own more hackish solutions to this problem...


Yeah, I've done some OBJ management, and yes... there's overhead allocating, managing, etc... but I mostly just find it to be annoying to deal with. My problem is that 8x8 is pretty small, so if you want enemies that are 32x32 or so, you end up having 4x4 objs, and for moving, you need to move 16 OBJs, and say the enemy turns around... rather than just flipping the chars, you need to flip as well as reorder the chars. This gets tedious, since some enemies could be 32x32, others could be 48x16, etc. A library that would allow operations on a "collection" of OBJs would be really nice IMO. Basically, if we had something that allowed BG-like control, but without the limitations of only 1 BG per world.

There's also the specifics of using OBJs which tend to cause confusion... like the SPTx regs.

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As a parting note, I would prefer it if whatever gets added to the pool is not tied down to an IDE. Personally, I develop in Vim and terminal, so having to use an IDE would be frustrating for me.


Yes, of course nothing would be tied to an IDE... but an IDE is nice to just jump in and get going without needing to deal with configuring stuff that's not really related to what you're trying to make.

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blitter wrote:
GDB. 'Nough said. :)


Yeah... I'd like to get the USB link adapter set up to work with GDB... but I don't know nearly enough about GDB to do this at the moment. Do you know the inner workings of GDB to help with this?

DogP
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#12
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/24 18:02
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2008/12/28
Slovenia
445 Posts
Highscore Top ScoreCoderContributorTop10 Poster10+ Game RatingsLong Time User (4 Years) App CoderPVBCC 2010 Entry
My suggestion for audio is to use WAV and MIDI, because for musicians they're the easiest to work with, even if they are hard to convert.

But there's another option: I've written a simple DOS-based tracker that supports (a maximum of) four channels and plays them to the PC speaker. The file format is very simple and the four channels conveniently map to the VB's four wave channels, leaving the sweep channel for Atari 2600-like sound effects and the noise channel for percussion or whatever.

Also, I prefer not being forced to use a specific IDE; EDIT.COM mostly does everything I want anyway. But I think it's time gccVB comes precompiled for Windows again.
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#13
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/24 21:50
VB Gamer
Joined 2007/12/14
47 Posts
Long Time User (5 Years)
Quote:

DogP wrote:

Yeah... I'd like to get the USB link adapter set up to work with GDB... but I don't know nearly enough about GDB to do this at the moment. Do you know the inner workings of GDB to help with this?


I wish I did-- as it is I've had to blindly slog through the GCC code trying to fix a couple of bugs.

Back in college, I did some Game Boy Advance dev using the HAM engine and SDK. The IDE we used integrated with GDB over a TCP/IP link to a local Debugging version of the VisualBoyAdvance emulator. USB link to hardware would be cool but I was thinking more along the lines of the setup I just described. Work done to get a v810 version of GDB working would also be beneficial to both the VB and the PC-FX homebrew communities. Ideally I would hope this could lead to (pie in the sky idea here) getting the Mednafen team interested in supporting a similar setup going between your GDB client of choice and Mednafen-- I believe Mednafen borrows some code from VBA anyway (not sure what parts, so it may be irrelevant).
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#14
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/27 6:37
PVB Elite
Joined 2003/7/25
USA
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PVBCC 1stCoderContributor#2 PosterHOTY09 EntryLong Time User (9 Years) App CoderPVBCC 2010 Entry
Quote:

HorvatM wrote:
My suggestion for audio is to use WAV and MIDI, because for musicians they're the easiest to work with, even if they are hard to convert.

But there's another option: I've written a simple DOS-based tracker that supports (a maximum of) four channels and plays them to the PC speaker. The file format is very simple and the four channels conveniently map to the VB's four wave channels, leaving the sweep channel for Atari 2600-like sound effects and the noise channel for percussion or whatever.

Well... it's not necessarily the file format, but more the limitations of the hardware to reproduce the sounds available on WAV and MIDI. It's hard to tell someone to make you a WAV or MIDI for a video game, then convert it and have it sound completely different. I really think a WYHIWYG composer would be nice, so they know exactly how it'd sound on the VB. Of course that also makes the job easier for putting it on the VB.

Your DOS-based tracker sounds interesting... do you have a link?

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blitter wrote:
Back in college, I did some Game Boy Advance dev using the HAM engine and SDK. The IDE we used integrated with GDB over a TCP/IP link to a local Debugging version of the VisualBoyAdvance emulator. USB link to hardware would be cool but I was thinking more along the lines of the setup I just described. Work done to get a v810 version of GDB working would also be beneficial to both the VB and the PC-FX homebrew communities. Ideally I would hope this could lead to (pie in the sky idea here) getting the Mednafen team interested in supporting a similar setup going between your GDB client of choice and Mednafen-- I believe Mednafen borrows some code from VBA anyway (not sure what parts, so it may be irrelevant).

Yeah, GDB would be nice in an emulator as well... I know Reality Boy has quite a few debugging features, but nothing that links back to the source code, like GDB would. I'm sure there'd be some inaccuracies, but maybe it'd help improve emulation, as well as help debug code.

One major downside to debugging on hardware is that the V810 only has one hardware breakpoint available, and since the cart is typically ROM (flash included, though technically rewritable), it's hard to do software breakpoints. It would be possible to rewrite the flash at run-time with a special breakpoint routine, though more difficult than if running from RAM like a lot of systems that do software breakpoints. Of course special code could be written to look for breakpoints when entering a function or something, but that's kinda hackish.

DogP
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#15
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/27 7:05
PVB Elite
Joined 2003/7/25
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PVBCC 1stCoderContributor#2 PosterHOTY09 EntryLong Time User (9 Years) App CoderPVBCC 2010 Entry
BTW, I see there's a precompiled GCC 2.95 for download here: http://www.planetvb.com/modules/tech/index.php?sec=utils&pid=gccvb ... is this what most people are using?

How about the others that are using GCC 4.x? I see some references here: http://www.planetvb.com/modules/newbb ... php?topic_id=4125&forum=2 and http://www.planetvb.com/modules/newbb ... php?topic_id=3883&forum=2 .

Is there any disadvantage to using GCC 4.x, with all the patches? Is it possible to make a precompiled version of GCC 4.x that can just be downloaded, rather than needing to be built? I'd like to get working on the library, but I really need to set up the environment for whatever GCC version we should call the "standard"... and IMO if there's nothing wrong with GCC 4.x, I think we might as well jump to that.

Thanks,
DogP
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#16
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/27 12:17
VUE(xpert)
Joined 2008/12/28
Slovenia
445 Posts
Highscore Top ScoreCoderContributorTop10 Poster10+ Game RatingsLong Time User (4 Years) App CoderPVBCC 2010 Entry
Quote:

DogP wrote:
Your DOS-based tracker sounds interesting... do you have a link?


http://matejhorvat.si/en/software/muspcs/
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#17
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/27 16:56
VB Gamer
Joined 2007/12/14
47 Posts
Long Time User (5 Years)
Quote:

DogP wrote:
BTW, I see there's a precompiled GCC 2.95 for download here: http://www.planetvb.com/modules/tech/index.php?sec=utils&pid=gccvb ... is this what most people are using?

How about the others that are using GCC 4.x? I see some references here: http://www.planetvb.com/modules/newbb ... php?topic_id=4125&forum=2 and http://www.planetvb.com/modules/newbb ... php?topic_id=3883&forum=2 .

Is there any disadvantage to using GCC 4.x, with all the patches? Is it possible to make a precompiled version of GCC 4.x that can just be downloaded, rather than needing to be built? I'd like to get working on the library, but I really need to set up the environment for whatever GCC version we should call the "standard"... and IMO if there's nothing wrong with GCC 4.x, I think we might as well jump to that.

Thanks,
DogP


I started with that precompiled 2.95.2 version for Windows many moons ago but have since rolled my own versions of both 2.95.2 and 4.4.2. I prefer 4.x since 2.95.2 no longer builds in newer versions of GCC-- I couldn't get it to build in anything >= 3.0. Plus, I do iPhone dev professionally so my primary environment is Mac OS X GCC 4.x obviously sports a lot of newer features (the .incbin directive, dead code elimination...) and I haven't run into anything yet that makes me want to go back to 2.95.2. (There is apparently an issue with PC-relative calls, but I haven't encountered it in optimized builds) I think it would make the most sense to work on fixing up the GCC 4.x patches going forward rather than focus our energies on an older version already several generations behind.

If you're interested, here are the versions I've been using most recently-- I've applied Mednafen's/dasi's latest patches as well as a couple of my own:

GCC 2.95.2 sources: http://blitter.net/etc/vb/gccvb-2.95.2_src-20101124.tar.gz
GCC 2.95.2 Mac OS X/PPC binaries: http://blitter.net/etc/vb/gccvb-2.95.2_macosx-20101124.tar.gz
GCC 4.4.2 sources: http://blitter.net/etc/vb/gccvb-4.4.2_src-20101123.tar.gz
GCC 4.4.2 Mac OS X/PPC binaries: http://blitter.net/etc/vb/gccvb-4.4.2_macosx-20101123.tar.gz

I haven't built these for Windows yet but I did adapt the make_v810.sh script so in theory it should build fine in an environment like Cygwin or MSYS/MinGW. YMMV as always...
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#18
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/27 17:43
PVB Elite
Joined 2003/7/25
USA
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PVBCC 1stCoderContributor#2 PosterHOTY09 EntryLong Time User (9 Years) App CoderPVBCC 2010 Entry
Thanks... I'll see if I can build 4.4.2 for Windows w/ the patches. I agree about moving forward... as long as there's no good reason to stay with the old compiler, we might as well enter the new millenium ;).

DogP
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#19
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/28 9:50
PVB Elite
Joined 2003/7/25
USA
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PVBCC 1stCoderContributor#2 PosterHOTY09 EntryLong Time User (9 Years) App CoderPVBCC 2010 Entry
I'm trying to build blitter's 4.4.2 patched version, but it keeps segfaulting while building binutils... any ideas? Here's the crash output:


./libtoolline 1128:  8016 Segmentation fault      (core dumpedgcc -DHAVE_CON
FIG_H 
-I. -I../../binutils-2.20/bfd -I. -I../../binutils-2.20/bfd -I../../binuti
ls
-2.20/bfd/../include -DBINDIR="/opt/gccvb/bin" --Wall -Wstrict-prototypes
-Wmissing-prototypes -Werror -Wno-error -MT archive.lo -MD -MP -MF .deps/archive
.Tpo -../../binutils-2.20/bfd/archive.-o archive.o


I tried it with my old cygwin, and just made a new cygwin with latest gcc and other packages... both did the same thing. I'm following David Tucker's original instructions as far as which packages are required and stuff... then I just do ./make_v810.sh .

Thanks,
DogP
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#20
Re: VB Development Environment... what's left?
Posted on: 2010/11/28 16:30
VB Gamer
Joined 2007/12/14
47 Posts
Long Time User (5 Years)
What version of GCC? (I used 3.3) Are you building for a 64-bit or 32-bit host? (I built for 32)
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